BEWARE OF JENMAR. (clex_monkie89) wrote,
BEWARE OF JENMAR.
clex_monkie89

Dean Meta

This started out last Thursday after "Something Wicked" and spiraled from there. It's as organized as I can make it without crying. I think I may be blind now.

Every last bit of this comes from a locked entry in her journal and I have gotten permission to copy and paste and repost this.

Spoilers for Supernatural up to 0118 - Something Wicked.



clex_monkie89: Dean is the definition of Woobie. He needs love so hard!

jillybinks: Oh yes, KING OF WOOBIE!!

Yeah, he needs it, but I don't think he will ever let anyone give it to him. I think that he knows Sammy loves him, but he just can't seem to think that he deserves it or that it's real. Which is tragic because while I don't think that Sammy loves Dean as much as Dean loves Sammy (scarily intense), Sam does love the hell out of him big brother and if Dean would just believe it, believe that his family loves him despite his faults and not because he's the grand protector of the world but because he's DEAN. Awww, Dean.

I love him. Seriously.

clex_monkie89: Yeah, he needs it, but I don't think he will ever let anyone give it to him.

Oh he so totally wont. He's got a complex the size of Texas, as far as he's concerned he so totally doesn't deserve the love.

I think that he knows Sammy loves him, but he just can't seem to think that he deserves it or that it's real.

Oh of course not, to him? Sammy loves him but to Dean it's probably only because they're family and you have to love family whether you like them or not.

Which is tragic because while I don't think that Sammy loves Dean as much as Dean loves Sammy (scarily intense)

Dean loves Sammy literally more than life itself. His entire life has revolved around keeps Sammy safe and making sure he's as completely spoiled as he "deserves" to be. Sammy? Loves Dean but it's really a completely different thing.

Sam does love the hell out of him big brother and if Dean would just believe it, believe that his family loves him despite his faults and not because he's the grand protector of the world but because he's DEAN.

Dean was given certain charges growing up; taking care of Sam, save the innocents, shoot the bad things, keep everyone safe, etc. And because of these charges and how young he was when he got them in his mind that's how the love connects. To him when he does these things right he should be loved because he's done right, every single time someone gets hurt and there was even a slight chance of him preventing it he's done wrong.

jillybinks: Exactly!

Sammy? Loves Dean but it's really a completely different thing.

Yeah, Sammy's got more of the close brotherly love. His love is more normal and mature, I think. He understands that their love will withstand being apart, that even when Sammy was at school, he still loved Dean. Dean looks at love like a child does, out of sight out of mind. Or that is what he is afraid Sam's love is like. He's afraid that if he is not there to protect Sam, that Sam won't love him and won't see that Dean loves him in return. Protection is the only way Dean knows how to show love.

Dean was given certain charges growing up; taking care of Sam, save the innocents, shoot the bad things, keep everyone safe, etc. And because of these charges and how young he was when he got them in his mind that's how the love connects.

You're right. It also makes me wonder if that is not the same with John. Makes me wonder if during their childhood, John was only able to show his boys that he loved them by protecting them, by standing between them and the monsters.



Makes me wonder if not only, like you said Dean

clex_monkie89: He's afraid that if he is not there to protect Sam, that Sam won't love him and won't see that Dean loves him in return.

Oh that is so totally it! Because Dean hates "chick-flick moments" the only way he's shown his love to his brother over the years is through some kinda of awkward code. "Duck, bitch!" means "Please don't get hurt!" and killing something means "I love you" while letting Sammy kill something means "I love you, I love you, please don't go! Please, please, please, please, please don't go and leave me!"

You're right. It also makes me wonder if that is not the same with John. Makes me wonder if during their childhood, John was only able to show his boys that he loved them by protecting them, by standing between them and the monsters.

I think so. It's pretty obvious that he kept the boys on pretty short leashes, and while Sam saw that as John controlling them John saw that as keeping them safe and showing them he loved them. And I think that every time John gave them more responsibility and every time he left them alone for a day or five at a time it was his way of showing them he trusted them, whether they realized it or not.

I did not know I had these thoughts until now. Huh.

jillybinks: TOTALLY!!

Dude, see, that is why it's great talking this shit out, because it always leads you farther in your theories. I mean, we pretty much agree, so it's not a debate, but we keep leading each other a little farther.

And I think that every time John gave them more responsibility and every time he left them alone for a day or five at a time it was his way of showing them he trusted them, whether they realized it or not.

I think not, in most cases. I think that Dean never really thinks that his father approves of him, trusts him fully. And Sam is sure that his father did nothing but confine them and lead them on a path that is not 'normal', not healthy. I think that all of them are desperately trying to be loved and trying to show their love, but none of them know how to show it and how to receive it.

I think that is also why the scene in Shadow was so moving, because they were all almost communicating, especially Sam and John. But I think that Dean still held himself apart, not only when Sam and John were reconnecting but later, once again falling back in to the role of protector rather than giving into his need to be loved and a family again.

clex_monkie89: I mean, we pretty much agree, so it's not a debate, but we keep leading each other a little farther.

Which is totally massive amounts of fun!

I think that all of them are desperately trying to be loved and trying to show their love, but none of them know how to show it and how to receive it.

It's like The Tower of Babble with that family! They each speak a different language and what means "I'm proud of you" in John's language sounds like "Why can't you do anything right?" in Dean's and "Do what I say, not what I do" in Sam's. They keep trying to "talk" to each other and "communicate" but everything they do gets Fucked Up Beyond All Repair over and over again.

I think that is also why the scene in Shadow was so moving, because they were all almost communicating, especially Sam and John.

That family really does a lot better when they don't try to talk or do anything more than hug. Really. And I agree with you on Dean falling back to his default role, he sacrifices. That's what it is, he sacrifices his... everything he wants and needs really for everyone else. It's just like the Lucky Charms last night, any other nine-year-old? Wouldn't've done that.

And on a similar note? I loved Little!Dean throwing out the pasketti-o's instead of eating them, I used to do that when I was little too, it's that whole "Fine then I won't have ANY!" sort of thing where you hope to lay guilt on the other party because you're making such a huge sacrifice.

jillybinks: They keep trying to "talk" to each other and "communicate" but everything they do gets Fucked Up Beyond All Repair over and over again.

Exactly! Someone need to either teach them to communicate or just keep them hugging each other.

It's just like the Lucky Charms last night, any other nine-year-old? Wouldn't've done that.

Oh, totally not. And everyone who said that Sammy was selfish for wanting the last of the Lucky Charms doesn't know children. They are totally selfish because to kids, they are their entire world. If anyone's behavior was unusual, it was Dean's, because kids are seldom that selfless. And you are right, throwing them out is totally that sort of FINE THEN! But when little Sammy gave him the toy? That was totally like big Sammy saying that yes, he understands why Dean does what he does. Sammy gets that Dean will sacrifice everything for him and he does his best to show Dean that he understands that and that he will do anything in return.

I don't think that Dean will ever allow Sam to give him everything though. To him, it's his sacrifice to make and I don't think that Dean will ever allow himself to take what it is that he wants. Sammy is not selfish, not any more than anyone else, he just looks that way next to Dean utter willingness to sacrifice everything, sacrifice himself for his family.

SO MUCH FUN!

clex_monkie89: And everyone who said that Sammy was selfish for wanting the last of the Lucky Charms doesn't know children.

Oh I know! It's like: Wait what? Okay I don't know about youbut when I was five I threw temper tantrums if I didn't get what I wanted (Well okay not actually but I was the sick baby so I got spoiled), Sammy was just being normal. I agree that it's Little!Dean who was completely...

Dean's been Dean since he was at least nine and I have this massive feeling that he spoiled Sammy rotten growing up, sneaking him his candy when he was in trouble and letting him watch TV and everything.

Sammy gets that Dean will sacrifice everything for him and he does his best to show Dean that he understands that and that he will do anything in return.

Exactly! The best example I can think of is the music. Sure, Dean has control of the stereo when he drives but if Sam really didn't want to listen to the music that bad? It'd be easy to trash the tapes or scratch them or something and get his way with the music. But he doesn't. Instead he bitches and moans and complains and smiles on the inside because he thinks Dean must obviously get what he's doing.

I don't think that Dean will ever allow Sam to give him everything though. To him, it's his sacrifice to make and I don't think that Dean will ever allow himself to take what it is that he wants.

What I said about Dean spoiling Sammy? Goes for this too. He wants Sam to have everything he wants and in order for that to happen Sam can't make any sacrifices at all for any reason. I honestly think that Sam and Dean are and were close enough that if Dean really wanted to he could've gotten Sammy to stay instead of going to college. He could've pulled out all the secret weapons and hit all the soft spots and Sammy would've said "fine" and stayed.

But he didn't. And he didn't because as much as he complains and bitches and rags on Sammy for wanting to be "normal" he wants Sammy to have whatever he wants, and so even though it hurts him like hell he doesn't try all that hard at all to get him to stay really.

In Dean's perfect world? Him and Dad and Sam will keep hunting things and helping people until they all die in battle together (Dad first because Dean knows what it would do to Dad to see either of them fall, followed quickly after by Sam and then by him because he doesn't want either of them to have to see him die). And he still hopes that Sammy will come back around to that, that some day he might realize that helping people like this is better than being a lawyer.

Sammy is not selfish, not any more than anyone else, he just looks that way next to Dean utter willingness to sacrifice everything, sacrifice himself for his family.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Dean is Batman and Sam is Spiderman. Dean will sacrifice everything he possibly can for the sake of everyone else, especially his family, and that makes him almost inhuman in away. Sam will sacrifice a hell of a lot but when it comes down to it he's still "human" and he still has that small bit of selfishness that keeps humans alive.

The more I think about it the more I think that if Dean were ever hunting on his own, no Dad and no Sam, he wouldn't last long. Not because he's not good at it but because once there's no one left who needs his protecting there's no reason not to go into the fight kamikaze-style; that "I'm gonna die but at least you will too" mentality.

MOG! SO MUCH!

jillybinks: Dean's been Dean since he was at least nine and I have this massive feeling that he spoiled Sammy rotten growing up, sneaking him his candy when he was in trouble and letting him watch TV and everything.

That thought makes me so happy! Okay, so I was thinking about Dean and what must have happened between age four when his mother died and age nine. When we see Dean at four, he saves Sammy because he is told to, he doesn't yet have that all consuming desire to save Sam.

I think that John probably purposefully shaped Dean into the protector. He would have known all about how to shape human behavior from when he was in the marines (if you consider that canon, which I do). So many people talk about how John yelled at Dean in Something Wicked, which is totally understandable for a freaked out parent, but that he never told Dean that it was okay later. I think that was on purpose.

If you think that Sammy is the focus for this demon (which I am not sure I do, but it seems likely and it seem like John thinks so) than John would have known that Sammy above all would have to be protected, because he is the one in danger. And I think that John might have believed that he would be taking most of the danger, drawing it away from his boys and therefore wouldn't live long enough to protect them both. So, he took Dean and using methods that were used on him in the marine, turned him into Sam's guardian, so that after John is gone, Sam will still be safe.

It's kinda fucked up, but I can see how it is the best option, the only option in order to keep the boy's safe. Of course, it sacrificed their childhoods, more Dean's than Sam's, but it kept them alive and I think that it shows that John trusts Dean more than Dean could ever imagine.

I dunno, maybe I am heading down the wrong path on this, but John letting that guilt fester inside Dean for so long, I would rather think of it as necessary and deliberate rather than cruel.

The more I think about it the more I think that if Dean were ever hunting on his own, no Dad and no Sam, he wouldn't last long. Not because he's not good at it but because once there's no one left who needs his protecting there's no reason not to go into the fight kamikaze-style; that "I'm gonna die but at least you will too" mentality.

Yeah, totally. And not only that, but because Dean is nothing without someone to save. That is why he hunts, not because he believes that saving people is good, but because he needs it. He needs to be the hero, the protector and yeah, if he no longer has someone that he loves there by his side, he will start taking more and more risks.

Makes me wonder if that is what happened while Sammy was in college and his Dad wondered off. I wonder if Dean saw that in himself and that is why he went to take Sam from college. Because if you are right (and I think that you are) that Dean wants Sammy to have the life he never will, than he would have left Sam at school, not pulled him back into the life.

So, was Dean actually being selfish at that point? Drawing Sam back because he needs him, despite wanting to keep Sam happy? In that case, his guilt over Jess dying is probably more than Sam's. Can you imagine? Sam had a great life, everything was perfect and normal and Dean pulled him back into the hunting and Jess died because of it. Damn. Someone needs a hug, so bad. Poor Dean!

clex_monkie89: PART 1
Okay, so I was thinking about Dean and what must have happened between age four when his mother died and age nine.

Oh man I know! I'll bet John trained him there too, making him learn how to change Sammy's diapers and how to feed him and everything else. And Dean? The way the journal said he used to climb in Sammy's crib? Mean's that when he was little he knew that whatever bad had happened to Mommy by Sammy could happen again.

[...] when he was in the marines (if you consider that canon, which I do)

Oh I totally consider it canon because John (From what little I've seen of him and from what I've heard) seems to have that Marine Mentality. Death Before Dishonor and all that. Not to mention? Unit, corps, God, country. Sam and Dean are his Unit, they're his blood and they matter more than anything else in the world. The corps are everyone else, all the other innocent people who will suffer if he and His Boys aren't there. And he's trained his boys that way too I think: "you watch out for your brother and then you watch out for the innocents, ignore me, I can take care of myself."

The perfect way to explain it is with a quote from one of apocalypsos' fics:
Hurts, does it?

Good. Use it.

It's everything John has ever taught His Boys in six words.

So, he took Dean and using methods that were used on him in the marine, turned him into Sam's guardian, so that after John is gone, Sam will still be safe.

Exactly. Because he had to know going into this that he was going to die in battle, hopefully before His Boys did. He's probably surprised he's lasted this long and he knows that when he goes His Boys are gonna hurt but he wants to make sure they can handle everything they need to. I honestly think he was probably sure he would be dead before Dean hit thirteen, and he wanted to make sure Dean could take care of himself and take car of Sammy too.

[...]John letting that guilt fester inside Dean for so long, I would rather think of it as necessary and deliberate rather than cruel.

It isnecessary in my head. You need a reason to drive you. "Something killed my Mom when I was a kid and I couldn't do anything then" only gets you so far, after a while Dean would "realize" that he was four and so this is really Dad's thing and he's just along to help. As bad as it sounds if Dean takes it personal and makes it his own ("That thing hurt my baby brother while Iwas supposed to be watching out for him!") that makes it safer for them all because then he has a reason to hit twice as hard and then he knows how it feels to have made a mistake.

And not only that, but because Dean is nothing without someone to save.

Dude. I'm almost sure I got the link to the original post from you but ethrosdemon said about Dean yesterday: "[...] all he does is wait for his people to direct him by voicing a need he can fill." And it's got to be one of the most spot-on on descriptions of him ever.

Makes me wonder if that is what happened while Sammy was in college and his Dad wondered off.

I am of the opinion that Dean has a whole new bunchof scars and shit from the gaps of time after Sammy left where he was hunting alone. I think he probably even ended up bad enough to be in the hospital a few times and that Sam doesn't know about those times because both Dean and Dad know how Sammy would react and so they just decided to keep it "their little secret."

Continued because I talk too much.


jillybinks: HA! Love that you had to use two comments!! I don't think that I have that much to say, but let's see.

ethrosdemon phased it perfectly, much better than I ever could. I didn't remember that, but yeah, that is totally Dean, to a t.

I really need to read the journal, I still haven't explored the site fully, so I don't know what it says. But Dean crawling into Sammy's crib, that makes my heart hurt. Because yeah, despite what he tells Sam(I am right in thinking that Dean has reassured Sam that the demon is not after him, right?), I think that he does feel that Sam is the focus. I mean, the guy does get choked far too many times. Either Kripke has a major kink about Jared's neck, or the demons go straight for Sam. And Dean stands right in their way.

Makes me wonder, aside from Dean getting hurt more while Sam was away (yes, totally, I think that Dean probably got close to death a few times and that, while I am not sure if he would have let his father in on his injury, not wanting to seem weak, I know he would have never let Sam know that he was taking the hunts too far), if Dean didn't see Sam while he was in college. The pilot was pretty clear on the fact that Dean never saw Sam in the two/four (I know there's an error there, Kripke said, but I don't know if it was two or four) years that Sam was in school, but that doesn't mean that Dean didn't stop by, make sure that Sam is safe.

I wrote in someone else's journal that I love fics with that, fics where Dean breaks into Sam's place and puts down holy water and protection spells. Because, yeah, I don't for one minute think that Dean could let Sam be away for two/four years and not check in on him, not see that he is safe. But I also don't doubt that he would do it in secret, never tell Sammy that he is there.

About Papa training Dean, I think that you are right, that it would have been one thing if Papa had trained Dean to find the thing that killed his mother. That would have been in some way, forcing Dean to make John's battles his own, something that Dean might not have stuck with. But in giving Dean his brother as his charge, John not only gave Sam a protector, but also gave Dean a mission in life, something that he needs. And here we are back at this: "[...] all he does is wait for his people to direct him by voicing a need he can fill."

It makes me think about that line in Terminator 2, where Sarah is thinking about the Terminator as a father figure, about how he is perfect because he will never leave, never hurt John. In a way, this is Dean. He will never put himself before Sam's needs, never once hesitate to sacrifice himself for his brother. However, that is putting too much on Sam. You can't invest your entire life in one other person, it's not fair to them and it's not fair to yourself. I wonder if that wasn't partly the reason why Sam left, because Dean was subsuming his life in his protection of Sam, his love for him.

And ultimately, Sam will disappoint Dean, because Sam is human and despite whether or not he continues hunting, he will at some point, become suffocated by Dean. Makes me wonder if the overbearing person in Sam's life pre-college wasn't Papa like Sam thinks, but Dean. So, Sam will leave because he must, because he needs a life and Dean will lose his. Destined for tragedy unless Dean (for lack of a better phrase) gets a damn life already.

You know, I haven't thought this much about characters in a long, long time. Whatever problems that I have with the show, it couldn't be complete crap because despite iffy plot holes and continuity errors and occasionally crappy writing, Sam, Dean and Papa are extremely interesting characters. They have depth or I would have run out of words a long time ago. There is only so much I can bullshit!

I love them. And I think that they all need hugs. And to get laid a little more often than they do. And less clothing. Oh, look, it only took a few comments before I got shallow!


clex_monkie89: Because yeah, despite what he tells Sam (I am right in thinking that Dean has reassured Sam that the demon is not after him, right?)

You know, come to think of it? I don't think they've ever directly dealt with whether or not it could be after Sammy on the show, except in Nightmare. But yeah, in that one Dean pretty much told him "Yeah, whatever, ego much?"

[...] but that doesn't mean that Dean didn't stop by, make sure that Sam is safe.

Oh I am so completely convinced he stopped by. I bet he and John both took turns sneaking there and checking up on him; salting things, protection spells, general stuff like that. There's no way they would just let him run off like that knowing what's out there. They're totally had him low-jacked or something.

I wonder if that wasn't partly the reason why Sam left, because Dean was subsuming his life in his protection of Sam, his love for him.

I think so too; I think Sam knew what Dean was doing. He's a smart kid and he knew that Dean was tailoring his life to Sam's, he knew that as long as he was around not only was Dean going to shelter him as much as possible but Dean wasn't going to really have any life of his own either.

See this goes into another thing I've been thinking about lately; Dean flirts a lot, that's canon. He's not a virgin, that's canon too. He has trust issues, also canon. I really don't think Dean's ever really had any steady girlfriend or anything in his life except for Cassie [Route 666], and she was in that gap of time where Dean didn't have Dad or Sammy with him. I think that Dean didn't let himself "share" with anyone else because he thought maybe that would betaking away from Sammy.

Makes me wonder if the overbearing person in Sam's life pre-college wasn't Papa like Sam thinks, but Dean.

Oh yes, I totally see Dean as some weird cross between a controlling boyfriend and an annoying little brother; he probably wanted to know where Sam was at all times and wanted to go with him when he went somewhere (So he didn't get hurt or do something stupid) and wanted to know who all his friends where and why he wasn't at the movies and nine like he said he would be and all sorts of other things only stalkers and father of teenage girls really care about.

Whatever problems that I have with the show, it couldn't be complete crap because despite iffy plot holes and continuity errors and occasionally crappy writing, Sam, Dean and Papa are extremely interesting characters. They have depth or I would have run out of words a longtime ago.

You know, it's funny. I did something like this a few months ago with Prison Break, much like this conversation I had no idea how huge my thoughts on the characters were until I typed them out.

A sure sign of a good show is the ability to spend multiple days talking about it and it's characters.

jillybinks: They're totally had him low-jacked or something.

Paranormal lojacking!! HAHAHA!!! Dude, someone has to write the fic where Sammy is in high school and sneaks out trying to get laid and Dean finds him and totally cock-blocks him, like using a location spell or something. So funny!!

I don't think they've ever directly dealt with whether or not it could be after Sammy on the show, except in Nightmare.

I think that what I was thinking about was either that or maybe Bloody Mary, where Sam think that he 'killed' Jess. But I think now that I'm not remembering right, that he thought he 'killed' her because he dreamt about her but didn't do anything about it. Not that the demon was attracted to him. But damn, I really have this vivid idea that I saw it, rather than read it. You know when you are sucked into a fandom when you can't tell fanon from canon. Either way, yeah, I (personally)think that Sammy is the focus and that Dean knows that, despite his "ego much" comment.

But again that is Dean, lying to Sam. That is another interesting facet of Dean's interaction with Sammy. Dean spends so much time avoiding real meaningful conversation, but when he lies to Sam like that (most tellingly during all of Nightmare where you could see this shit freaking him out, but that he lies to Sam in order to bear that freaking out) that's just another step in him taking on pain in order to spare Sam. I don't remember who said it or where, but someone mentioned that last scene, where Dean makes the Vegas crack and then pauses and you can totally see the fear and worry on his face. Sam freaked him the fuck out during that episode, but because Sam staying calm and happy is more important than his own fears, he totally internalized that fear, just to keep Sam calm and reassure him. He would rather keep that all inside than burden Sam with his fear.

Which then goes more into that over-protection of Sam. He doesn't give Sam the choice to deal with things on his own. He makes those decisions for Sam, just like he decided for Sam that he will die in Sam's place, rather than let fate or Sam have any choice in the matter. And in the long run, for someone with the independent streak that Sam has, that's going to piss him off. Because Dean doesn't trust Sam, not over his own protection instinct. And that's slightly condescending.

See this goes into another thing I've been thinking about lately; Dean flirts a lot, that's canon. He's not a virgin, that's canon too. He has trust issues, also canon. I really don't think Dean's ever really had any steady girlfriend or anything in his life except for Cassie [Route666], and she was in that gap of time where Dean didn't have Dad or Sammy with him. I think that Dean didn't let himself "share" with anyone else because he thought maybe that would be taking away from Sammy.

Dude, yes yes yes. I mean, yeah, he comes off as the total player, but in an overly heavy-handed way. It was why those crack-fics about how Dean was really a virgin were canonically not correct, but you could see it. Also hilarious, but that's another thing. Dean is not open, that is his problem. Even to Sam and his father, whom he loves, he is closed off and unable to show his love. And that doesn't boad well for a long-term relationship.

I have no doubt that Dean gets play (because I have looked at him) but it's one-night stands, not relationships. Even Cassie totally called him on his ability to close down emotionally and cut her out. I think that the only reason that relationship lasted as long as it did was because she was as equally scared as he was of opening up and didn't call him on his shit. Later, when it was unavoidable she took the easy route out of the relationship and he let her.

But yeah, you can't be that closed off and be in a long-term relationship. And you are right, he is so consumed with both hunting and Sam that there isn't room for anything else. All wincest aside (which I love reading, but don't buy, canonically) Sam is the only one for Dean, in a totally brotherly way.

clex_monkie89: Holy shit. I'd just like to start this off by saying I had a huge response written down in notepad last night when I fell asleep and my asshole brother didn't bother to save it when he took the computer, so this one is probably going to be a bit shorter while I try not to cry as I fake this from memory.

Either way, yeah, I (personally) think that Sammy is the focus and that Dean knows that, despite his "ego much" comment.

I totally think Dean knows it and I bring this back to Dean crawling in Sammy's crib when he was a tiny babe, as written in Papa's journals (transcribed).At four he knew something bad had happened and he knew it happened while Sammy was sleeping but not much more than that. When he went to go and get Sam and Jess died? I think it hit Dean at that second that Jess died over Sam's bed the same way Mom died over Sammy's crib and that maybe something was trying to get him or get to him. That and? I don't think the whole "Choke the baby!" thing is new, I think when they were hunting growing up the things usually went for Sammy for some reason or another.

Sam freaked him the fuck out during that episode, but because Sam staying calm and happy is more important than his own fears, he totally internalized that fear, just to keep Sam calm and reassure him. He would rather keep that all inside than burden Sam with his fear.

Sam scared Dean straight down to his very core. Dean would nevertell him that though because he knows how bad it would hurt Sam to know that. And? I think that maybe for a second a Bad Thought ran through his head and he feels guilty for it. I think once Sam told him he moved the dresser with his mind Dean remember Mom and Jess and had a flash moment of doubt and I think he feels like the scum of the Earth for even thinking it for even a second. And? I think it scares him that he could think that about his little brother, even for a millisecond.

Because Dean doesn't trust Sam, not over his own protection instinct. And that's slightly condescending.

It is condescending and a little insulting but he doesn'treally trust Sam. But really? He trusts his gut above everything except maybe Dad. I really think that if they were in a Fight and Dad told him to run but his Gut told him to charge the thing Dean very well might just completely freeze for a few seconds because his brain would have no idea what to do. And as was very recently mentioned Dean is the older brother and therefore he believes that he's always right so he holds onto that. It doesn't matter that Sam can fight as good as he can(Or almost) or that Sam was trained the same way he was, if Dean thinks there's a chance that Sam may get a paper cut he could prevent he's gonna do everything he can to stop that paper cut because... Because really? Dean's more like an overprotective father than he is a brother, and that makes sense because he raised Sammy just as much as Dad did.

jillybinks: Okay, I have read through the journals (finally!) and I think that I have a much clearer understanding of John's motivation. That is, of course, if these journals can be relied upon as canon. I know that the site is official, but still, from my dealings with Lost fandom, there is a lot of people between the writers and the site designers and most of the time, the two never talk. However, for the purposes of this discussion, I am going to assume that the journal is accurate to John's character. All the following quotes are from the Journal.

No wonder he started training those boys, started the crusade. Going from just his POV, not taking into account that Mike might have been right and John was imagining all this, John is seriously hunted. The boys are endangered.

Last night I was sitting in Sam and Dean's room, in the dark, ad I heard these noises... Mike said it was the wind, and okay, maybe it was, but it sounded almost like whispering, like someone was whispering a name, under their breath, again and again... like something is out there in the dark, watching us...

Interesting. That basically stats flat out that there is something following the family and that it is after any one of the guys. John, Sam or Dean. Also implies that Mary was not the intended victim of the demon, but merely stood in the way. I think that we are going to find out at some point who's name the creature was saying and that will be very telling.

Exactly the kind of crack police work I'd expect.

Already, John has shown not only a distrust of the police and their ability to solve the crime, but that he cannot rely on them because to them, he is the top suspect. So, it is no doubt that John would go vigilante. He has no one else to turn to, so he alone must protect his children.

Leapt out at me... like it had a purpose, like it wanted to keep me away, to stop me from reaching her

Although I said earlier that I didn't think that Mary was the focus for the demon, this is very interesting, and it is exactly what the pilot showed. The fire went after John.

But both Sam and Dean were out of the room. So, was the fire trying to go after them? Is John the focus? Mary?

I'm collecting old police files, going through microfiche... looking for any fires, arsons, with similar MOs. I'm gonna find this guy, and when I do... God forgive me...

There is an element there of revenge, but I personally think that there is more than that, more than revenge motivating John. He feels this need to explain what happened and more than that, to do something about it. Not merely to exact revenge, but so that he has done something. John to me is not a passive person (using both his experience in the Marines and his unwillingness to let the fire stay unsolved) and he, in his grief, feels the need to do something, to actively protect his children and to discover the truth.

It makes me wish that the journal was continued, but then I suppose that it is. If you look at the journal entries, there is a particular order to them.

1. Event (fire)
2. Questioning
3. Investigation
4. The Truth (Missouri)
5. Action

Everything that we have seen the boys use in the series is the evidence of John's actions, what he is doingto solve his wife murder and protect himself and his children. It seems to me that once John learned the truth (do you remember what Missouri said she told John, if that can be relied upon?), he stopped thinking and started acting.

So, what does this all mean? That perhaps John never really had a choice of whether or not he would start hunting. That it was inevitable, what with whatever was hunting them. That he had a choice, hide his head in the sand and hope the demon doesn't come back or protect his children and give them the skills in which they can protect themselves.

clex_monkie89: I know that the site is official, but still, from my dealings with Lost fandom, there is a lot of people between the writers and the site designers and most of the time, the two never talk.

I think I remember reading something in one of the Pailey transcripts with Kripke saying that he had some kind of input in the site. I'm not positive and I'd have to look back through the links to find out for sure. I do however remember reading that he thought it was funny all these theories about Sam and Dean's 2/4 year thing. All the theories and such when in reality they just fucked up a bit in the script.

No wonder he started training those boys, started the crusade.

Which is what I love about the journals; it shows you that John is some completely batshit vet. There really is an incredibly high chance that something out there specifically wants to harm him and his family.

I think that we are going to find out at some point who's name the creature was saying and that will be very telling.

I know that most people probably think that it's after Sam, and while that's a good thought I personally think it's the Winchesters in general. I think that somehow for some reason John caught something's eye and it's been shit from there on out.

So, it is no doubt that John would go vigilante. He has no one else to turn to, so he alone must protect his children.

Exactly. He loves and loved his wife with all his heart and could never think of hurting her. The police are trained to think that the spouse is always the prime suspect, and usually with good reason, and they're also trained that anyone talking about people being pinned to the ceiling or such is obviously insane. Which kinda left John on his own because he knew what he saw.

But both Sam and Dean were out of the room. So, was the fire trying to go after them? Is John the focus? Mary?

All the more reason for me to remember to watch the pilot. And all the other eps I haven't seen.

He feels this need to explain what happened and more than that, to do something about it.

Exactly, it's not just that he wants it dead,, he wants to know why. Why Mary? Why him? Why Sam? What's so special about all of them? What did they do to deserve this?

It seems to me that once John learned the truth (do you remember what Missouri said she told John, if that can be relied upon?), he stopped thinking and started acting.

I'm not entirely sure that we know exactly what Missouri said to him. We know that she told him something like "stop avoiding the boys" and he responded with something about the boys having to find out The Truth for themselves.

So, what does this all mean? That perhaps John never really had a choice of whether or not he would start hunting. That it was inevitable, what with whatever was hunting them. That he had a choice, hide his head in the sand and hope the demon doesn't come back or protect his children and give them the skills in which they can protect themselves.

I think that knowing John's character and knowing about who he is there was never really a choice. Once he realized his family was in danger and there was something he could do about ignoring it wasn't really an option.

jillybinks: I am a terribly chatty bitch today. Part one of probably three here!

When he went to go and get Sam and Jess died?

I really really want canonical evidence of why Dean didn't leave in the first place. I mean, there are tons of assumptions, but I don't even know if I believe all the fan assumptions.

One: Dean was worried about Sam and stuck around to watch after him. I mean, just physically, the time between when Sam started screaming and Jess caught fire, there is no way for Dean to have gotten from the car to the bedroom. He and Sam spend at least 5 minutes of discussion between walking out of the apartment and down the stairs and out to the car. So, if you don't just write that off as a continuity error, why was Dean not only still there but in the apartment.

I would also like to know what the timing is of Sam coming home, seeing the cookies, lying on the bed and the opening his eyes to Jess on the ceiling. I remember the first time I watched it, I thought that Sam fell asleep a bit, but that wasn't clear on my rewatchings. Did he close his eyes for just a moment? I mean, he is lying there, looking up, closes his eyes, reopens them. At some point in that time, Jess when from in the shower(I assume) to the ceiling. That would take more than the few seconds that were actually shown.

Two: Dean somehow knew that something was wrong or saw some sign of the demon.

This relates back to what Dean knows about the demon and when he knew about it. In the journals, yeah, Dean crawls in with Sam. I am not sure if that is because he knows that there is a demon after Sam, or if he just considers Sam his charge (from the night of the fire) or if he just wants the simple comfort of being with his brother. All three are likely.
The problem is that in the context of the show's narrative, we only really get to see Dean's thoughts through what he tells Sam and what he shows on his face. He is never going to tell Sam the whole truth, so we don't get to see the whole truth. Which is kinda cool, but annoying when you are trying to piece this shit together. I really hope that Jensen is as good as I think he is at keeping the character of Dean consistent.

So, we don't know what Dean felt after that night, we don't know what he thinks the demon is really after, or why he went back to Sam's apartment. We don't even really know how much he knows about the demon and he's not the best at sharing that information with Sam (and therefore us). I mean, it wasn't until Home that Dean (or his father) told Sam about Dean carrying him out. Which means that Dean and John have been keeping a lot from Sam (if you don't think that it was just a writer goof).

What was my point? Oh, right, Dean knowing about the demon being after Sam after Jess. I think that on the whole, the reason why Dean was in that apartment is the proof behind that theory. I mean, I could still see Dean as the focus if he had no reason to be in that apartment. The demon could have been following Dean. I don't really believe it, I think that Sam is the focus, but I can't 100% discount that theory until I know why Dean was in the apartment. WHY??

clex_monkie89: And this is getting saved and answered tonight too because I really can't say anything at all until I watch the pilot. Which I'm totally gonna do tonight.

jillybinks: I think that maybe for a second a Bad Thought ran through his head and he feels guilty for it. I think once Sam told him he moved the dresser with his mind Dean remember Mom and Jess and had a flash moment of doubt and I think he feels like the scum of the Earth for even thinking it for even a second

My god, are you implying what I think that you are implying? Because if you are talking about how Sammy might not just be the focus, but the cause of the fires. And not only the cause as in the demon was drawn by Sam's powers but that the demon is Sammy? Or inside him? DUUUUDE!! Okay, I have never thought about that before, but now I need to explore it a bit. So, if I am misunderstanding you, forgive this next bit of mental masturbation.

Okay, so what do we know about the demon? It caused the fires (Mary and Jess). Damn, I wish I was at home so I could rewatch Home and find out what Missouri said about the demon. Based on Shadow, I don't think that John could talk about killing it in the while looking at Sam. Even John is not that cut off from his children. So, if that is the case, John does not believe that the demon is Sam or is in Sam.

So, might Dean? Did he just have a flicker of doubt? Do I believe it or am I just having a flicker of doubt? Maybe, since I don't think that the writers would go that dark of a route. I mean, I would love to see it in a fic, where it turns out that Sam has been carrying the Demon inside him all this time, that he (or whatever is inside him) kills Jess and Mary and that Dean has to choose between avenging his mother's death or caring for Sam. And saving himself, since it seems like if Sam is unaware of this thing inside him, which he would have to be, what it is that keeps Dean and John alive? They're men? Sam needs them? I don't really believe any of this, but it would make a damn good story!

clex_monkie89: My god, are you implying what I think that you are implying?

Why yes I think I am. This is what being a anime/manga/sci-fi native does to you, it hits all those dark spots and twists your brain in some weird places. Do I think realistically that they would go this route on the show? Probably not. But? It is and interesting thought. And even if it's not true it's something I think could cross Dean's brain once or twice mostly because that would throw him for a huge fucking tailspin.

Of course? I'm also possibly the only person in fandom who sometimes isn't entirely sure that the shapeshifter was the one that died in Skin. It's not always, only at these random moments. The begining of Shadows when Dean felt kinda off? That hit my Spidey Sense. Nightmare? Hit it too. Oddly enough it wasn't the part where Dean brought in the gun with the actual bullets, it was the first time Dean tried to tell Sam he wasn't freaked out, there was a millisecond of time where Dean got this look on his face that just creeped me out badly.

Again though, I know that this is most likely not the case but I just... I think it's be cool to have an X-Files moment where four years down the line we see Dean peel off his skin.

And saving himself, since it seems like if Sam is unaware of this thing inside him, which he would have to be, what it is that keeps Dean and John alive?

That would be the question. The Winchester men survive but the women they love don't, I can think of a few old legends that target women like that but not in the same way. One thing I'll say for Kripke is that he sure as hell seems to know what he's doing.

jillybinks: I am so sorry for this verbal outpouring. I blame it on too little sleep and boring work!

It doesn't matter that Sam can fight as good as he can (Or almost)
I wonder about that. First, I wonder if the boys were trained identically. I mean, in the flashback, Sam was just too small(physically) to be able to handle the training that Dean has already had. So, overall, Dean would have been trained for longer, both because he is older and because of the four years that Sam wasn't training. Does Sam fight as well as Dean? I would say no, easily, and I think that we have been shown that.

Dean not only takes point on all things because he is overprotective and the older one (therefore right in all things) but because he knows more about what they are hunting. And just on the purely surface level, Dean is much more capable looking while holding a gun. That might be because Jen has had much more experience fighting and shooting in roles, where Jared has mostly done more drama work, but I would like to think that some of that is deliberate.

Dean just looks more confident and while I don't have the exact stats, I think that overall, Dean is the better shot and actually takes down most of the kills, while Sam mostly gets in the way, or gets the people out of danger. Now, if Sammy's got the superpowers, even if they are latent and he hasn't developed them, you would still think that would enhance his ability to fight on a subliminal level. If you think, like I do that the powers would have manifested at the time of Jess's death, but he only used them consciously in Nightmare. However, he would have been using them in little ways before then. I think so. So, with this added heightened ability, why is it that Dean is still better at fighting?

He trusts his gut above everything except maybe Dad. I really think that if they were in a Fight and Dad told him to run but his Gut told him to charge the thing Dean very well might just completely freeze for a few seconds because his brain would have no idea what to do.

Interesting. I wonder how much of Dean's fighting is instinctual and how much is deliberate. I mean, I know that Dean doesn't act instinctually outside of a fight. He doesn't speak instinctually. His conversation is very filtered, at least with Sam. What he is thinking and what he is saying are two different things.

But I wonder if I can look at his fighting technique and see how much of that is reaction to his environment and how much is skill melded with training and forethought. To use Buffy as an example (I don't know if you watched it or not), her fighting style was very instinctual, evidenced by how much she used her environment and objects around her that could not be pre-planned. She is fighting a demon and they end up in a sewer tunnel and she uses the steam from a busted pipe to kill him. Something like that. That is using your environment in a way that is you can't preplan.

Seems to me that Dean is not like that. He can use found objects (fire a lot )but in the most part, he uses what he brings with him and I believe that he uses the techniques that he was trained with, as opposed to thinking on his feet. I mean, he's used found objects several times, but mostly, he uses them in the exact same way. Which may be a lack of creativity on the writer's part, but maybe not.

However, that doesn't mean that I don't think that Dean doesn't use his gut when making decisions. Seems to me that Dean makes decisions two ways. He does what his father tells him or what he thinks that his dad would do in his place or he does what feels right. I am trying to think of individual instances, but I am blanking. I really need to do a re-watching of all the episodes.

clex_monkie89: Does Sam fight as well as Dean? I would say no, easily, and I think that we have been shown that.

I think you have a point there. My problem is that it's hard for me to gage their fighting levels. It's obvious that they can beat the shit out of "normal" people because "normal" people don't really have the kind of training they do. And I think they can probably beat on each other for a good fifteen minutes or so until one of them knocks the other down.

I think that they were taught probably almost completely different styles growing up because A) Your body type has a lot to do with your fighting style, and B) fighting two different people at the same time with two different styles throws people off. And example is me and my brother. I'm the only girl and I was a tinylittle thing until puberty hit so when my big brother taught me how to fight I learned all the soft spots, kidneys, neck, nose, ears, groin, solar plexus, shin, Adam's apple, and so on. I was taught defensive offense and I learned how to block and how to kick and how to take someone down quick and get away quick. My younger brother has always been on the big side and was taught pure offense. We can both takes hits and we can both throw our force around but he uses brute power, hard them hard and often and don't stop until they bleed and cry, he rarely blocks and always taunts the people he fights.

I think Sam and Dean are the same way kind of. Dean is the baby of the family and judging from the flashback he was kinda average sized until he hit a growth spurt. So I think that John and Dean being who they are they probably taught Sammy guerilla-style tactics. I think they taught him how to use his speed, very hit and run. Dean on the other hand? Kind of reminds me of my brother in the fighting aspect. I think that when the boys fought each other though they were dead-even because growing up together they'd know all each other's weak points and tells and Sam would know about the knee Dean blew out when he was sixteen and Dean would know about that shoulder of Sam's that slips out of the socket with just the right tug.

Interesting. I wonder how much of Dean's fighting is instinctual and how much is deliberate.

I've watched a lot of Buffy and so I know what you're talking about with the Instinct Vs. Intellect debate. I think it's mostly intellect; he's a very smooth person who manages to make it look like everything he does is spontaneous when really I think it's planned as much as he can plan it. I highly believe that Dean goes into a fight with a plan and a dozen back-ups in case that plan fails.

Seems to me that Dean makes decisions two ways. He does what his father tells him or what he thinks that his dad would do in his place or he does what feels right.

I think that's pretty groovy right there. Dean pretty much almost worships John in a way. His motto, or one of them at least, seems to be What Would Dad Do?

clex_monkie89: But yeah, you can't be that closed off and be in a long-term relationship. And you are right, he is so consumed with both hunting and Sam that there isn't room for anything else.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense to me; Dean really is like a single father and he has been ever since he was a kid. He's made his entire life about Sam and taking care of him and so he can't really bring himself to open up to anyone else. He's close with Sam and that's because they've literally been together since Sam was born, they know how to piss each other off and how to say sorry and they know what things to talk about and what things to ignore and just shove away like it didn't happen (Telekinesis anyone?).

Dean doesn't know how to be open with people because he's only been open with Sam and Dad and even then not fully. You know that the first thing they were taught is "Don't talk to strangers and if someone asks you something about me or us or anything else lie." And when you spend your entire life keeping secrets and internalizing things it becomes second-nature and easy and telling someone the truth is harder than anything else, even something like "My mom died when I was four," which could sound completely normal.

All wincest aside (which I love reading, but don't buy, canonically) Sam is the only one for Dean, in a totally brotherly way.

I know what you mean, I love the Wincest fics but in the show so far I haven't really seen it much. I mean I've seen a small something here or there that seems a little less normal but that can really be chalked up to being a Winchester and being half crazy. But on the show? I honestly don't think I can really see Dean ever getting a girlfriend or wife and settling down. Because really unless he ever meets someone who was brought up the same as him it's just not going to work. And? Sam and Dean are one of a kind cases. Even if Dean ever met a girl and told he about The Family Secret and she actually believed him chances are that she either wouldn't actually believe him fully (It's one thing to be told, another to see it yourself) or she would but she just wouldn't believe it the right way (New-age people or the human vampires or such) and neither of those are kinds of people Dean can or would be able to deal with long-term.

jillybinks: He's close with Sam and that's because they've literally been together since Sam was born, they know how to piss each other off and how to say sorry and they know what things to talk about and what things to ignore and just shove away like it didn't happen (Telekinesis anyone?).

Yeah, Sam and Dean's interactions on the show have a very obvious pattern. Especially in times of stress. Mostly, it boils down to

Sammy: (says something meaningful)
Dean: (avoids the subject, begs for death)
Sammy: (voices a fear)
Dean: (brushes it off with a glib remark)
Sammy: (talks crap about Dad)
Dean: (goes off)
Sammy: (asks a invasive question)
Dean: (closes down, avoids the subject)

All there interactions are along those lines, so yeah, dysfunctional, but that is the way they communicate. And it works for them, really does. Except, they seem to be breaking out of that. In Something Wicked, Sam asks about the past, Dean brushes it off. He lies several times, but Sam finally pushes past the lies and Dean opens up. Rare.

Even if Dean ever met a girl and told her about The Family Secret and she actually believed him chances are that she either wouldn't actually believe him fully

That is why it is so interesting that Dean told Cassie after what was only a few weeks. I mean, it is implied that Dean thought that Cassie was really the one, but it is even more implied that Sam know that Jess was the one, and Sam didn't tell. It goes back to what we were talking about before, how when Dean met Cassie he was alone. Perhaps he was trying to fill the Sammy hole (not like that!) by making her into his partner and that is why he told her. But in the end, she wasn't capable of doing that, of being the new Sammy, so she freaked, he freaked, the end.

But you might be right. I can see him looking up with someone that is like him, on a mission, hunter, but in the end, she would be so like him that they would both put their work over each other and that would never work. I don't think that for one minute Dean could be like Sam and live with someone and not tell the truth to, because in the end, he's looking for someone that he can have the same kind of relationship that he has with Sam. He wants someone that he can protect, but also someone that knows that they need protecting.

Okay, I am shutting up now. For real this time!


clex_monkie89: In Something Wicked, Sam asks about the past, Dean brushes it off. He lies several times, but Sam finally pushes past the lies and Dean opens up. Rare.

Oh yes, I think this is a prime example of Sam knowing when to push harder and Dean realizing that maybe Sam might want/need to know this. It's obviously something that doesn't happen a lot, Sam knows when to give up and Dean doesn't like telling things. I'm sure he'd rather have a root canal without any drugs than tell something painful or truthful to someone, even Sam.

It goes back to what we were talking about before, how when Dean met Cassie he was alone.

Yeah, Dean doesn't deal well with being alone. Because of John and how protective he was/is of the boys Dean probably doesn't have a lot of experience with being by himself and I bet he doesn't like it at all. He's so completely desperate for... someone that he told Cassie everything after like, an hour. I don't think it would've mattered much if he thought he would spend the rest of his life with her or not, he was so desperate for someone to understand/talk to and she was right there. Poor Dean. He totally needs to talk to someone but can't bring himself to actually talk with Sam.

I don't think that for one minute Dean could be like Sam and live with someone and not tell the truth to, because in the end, he's looking for someone that he can have the same kind of relationship that he has with Sam. He wants someone that he can protect, but also someone that knows that they need protecting.

I think that's why I like the Wincest, because on the show? Dean is totally looking for the female version of Sam, Sam is his... I can't bring myself to say "soul mate" because it sounds so FF.Net but Sam is everything Dean needs and his perfect balance in nearly every way. What show!Dean needs? Is the fem!Sam. He needs a Samantha.

clex_monkie89: I wonder if Dean saw that in himself and that is why he went to take Sam from college. Because if you are right (and I think that you are) that Dean wants Sammy to have the life he never will, than he would have left Sam at school, not pulled him back into the life.

I'm thinking that was a part of it. I think Dean knows he's kinda reckless without Dad or Sammy around and I think he know that if it were just him going to look for Dad that Dad would never get found because Dean would get killed before he got far. So he went and grabbed Sammy to "help" with the hunt, and Sammy did, in more ways than he knows. Sammy keeps Dean going and kicks him when he needs it and gets choked at just the right times to get Dean mad enough to go that extra distance.
Tags: fandom:, meta, supernatural
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